The Foundation of the Atonement: Propitiation and Penal Substitution

By Reverend Mark Hunnemann

We need to fix in our minds that the atonement was an objective, historical event that first, made a change in God, and then (as a consequence) in our relationship to Him. Penal (relating to penalty) substitution means that Christ bore in substitutionary way, the penalty/punishment for our sin. This was an objective event that occurred outside of us, and is foundation for all the blessings of the atonement that flow to/in us:  reconciliation, ransom, redemption, ect. It must be first seen as God-ward event, satisfying God’s need to deal justly with His wrath towards sin/sinners. (Romans 3:25)

This aspect of the atonement has been, and is, hated by critics as being ‘primitive and obscene’. "How can you preach a wrathful God in our day and age?" Because He IS a wrathful and holy God, in every age. ..and it is a horrible thing to fall into the Hands of a wrathful God.That is because they do not understand: God’s holiness, His wrath, the sinfulness of sin, God’s jealousy, and His desire to see His Name  magnified above all else.  This aspect of the cross makes justification possible.

The cross is about our salvation. What is the number one danger we are saved from by the cross? God Himself—His wrath. “flee from the wrath to come.” If someone casts doubt on propitiation, then they are preaching ‘another gospel’ because this is the heart of the gospel—the good news. Some see hell as ‘Christless eternity’ but He is omnipresent, and His eternal presence as a judge will be the real hellishness of hell.

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. (Gal. 1:8-10)

Had you been an eye-witness of this event, the spiritual aspect of cross would not have been self evident—it was hidden from onlookers. Gospels, and especially epistles, explain the theology of cross. God interprets His saving event, but in form of several images to capture full riches of what happened on cross.

What atonement is NOT: payment of ransom to Satan (e.g. Origen)—payment made to God; merely moral influence/heroic theory; moral government. First is wrong, and others are partial truths presented as whole truths. Being re-recycled today.

The suffering experienced on the cross by Jesus:

1. Physical—Mark, crucifixion— 23 And they offered him wine mixed with myrrh, but he did not take it. 24And they crucified him…. (Mark 14)   That is all the text says. To first century audience, that is all that was needed to say…the specifics and horrors of it were well known and observed regularly. Thousands of people were being crucified as capital punishment. But Roman citizens not crucified because it was deemed too awful and undignified way to die.
                                                                                                                                                                                   
I don’t think we have to say that Jesus suffered more than anyone, physically….though it was exceedingly awful. Others suffered just as bad, in this regard.

2. Psychological pain: due to bearing our sin was unprecedented—contradicted all He was and hated most deeply. Is. 53:6; 2Cor 5:21; 1 Pet 2:24  (we have no sense of this, multiplied by millions) He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. (1 Peter) 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

3. Most painful was propitiation, sacrifice that bears God’s wrath to make God favorable or propitious to us. 4 texts. Mean? Holy anger of God was poured on Christ. Hilasterion/hilasmos Rom 3:25; Heb 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 4:10 He was cursed for us…the lights were turned off.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

We know a little bit of pain of other person venting anger at us even when innocent, which is difficult, but wrath of infinitely holy God poured out on His Son, wave after wave. Cries out. As the wooden cross has vertical and horizontal dimension, this was vertical part of atonement. It is finished !John 10:17. 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)

Father was satisfied by payment Is 53:11

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makesh an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall seei and be satisfied;by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

Abandonment. Father Matt 26: 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the landg until the ninth hour.h 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Why have you forsaken Me? One of the most puzzling, troubling comments in bible. Bearing sin and wrath, Jesus is quoting Ps 22. As a man, not have understood the full extent beforehand—though in garden, He had a clear and horrible sense of it. Touching His human nature, He died. His divine nature could not die-the notion is heretical because God cannot die. Mystery of the Person of Christ as one Person, with two natures. Nobody knows the full meaning of the cry of dereliction on the cross and how it relates to both natures.
( Rom 8:1 result)

Some prominent theologians denying penal substitution in UK and USA.

Washed over liberal lie from 1920 liberalism. No wrath because divine love overcomes it all.
Next steps? Hell is not eternal. Hell gone. All are saved. IVP and Zondervan  have both published books attacking the penal substitution and propitiatory nature of atonement. One man even called it—“divine Child abuse.”

Application:
Don’t retreat just because  folks don’t like something. Not understanding, or even liking a doctrine (at least initially), may be good reason to believe it. Wrestling with unsettling truths can be time of accelerated spiritual growth.

God not punish believers but consequences and discipline. (Heb. Loves us…)
Ultimately cross was work of God Father who inflicted suffering, not man (Acts 2 and 4) 53:10 Is. Will we ever understand this? Human analogies fail us. Righteous burning anger poured out on innocent Son. Troubling and awe-inspiring.

Jesus’ blood represents His propitiatory death. We should not think of blood in superstitious way. John Guest once asked, “if Jesus had accidentally cut his finger, would that blood have cleansed people of sin?” Surely not-- because the blood of Jesus that cleanses us and makes demons tremble, is the cross of Christ and His propitiatory death—His penal substitution which was victorious over His enemies. (Col. 2:15) His ‘blood’ is synonymous with His atoning death on the cross—that is why the blood of Christ is often referred to, as ‘shorthand’ for atonement. It signifies His death, as did blood of animal sacrifice in OT signified it had died. The sprinkled blood was evidence that sacrifice had been killed. Need to avoid popular notions that border on superstition regarding Christ’s blood, that are disconnected from His finished work on the cross. It was His death, which the blood signifies, which makes atonement for us—reconciling, redeeming, and ransoming us. “The blood of Jesus” is precious to believers precisely because of all the benefits that His atoning death purchased for us (e.g. peace with God, victory over evil one, bold access to throne of grace, etc).

19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water Trust Him and be at peace  10:19 think of Jewish person being told they could come boldly into Holy of Holies!!

Blood of Christ? Pouring out ones life/death. Here is proof that sacrifice or death occurred. Evidence of Christ paying price  Rom 3:25 blood/death.

Cleanses conscience 9:14; access to God in worship and prayer 10:19 sees blood or death, 1 John 1:7 cleanses us from ongoing sin. . Rescued from futile ways of life. 1 Peter. 1:18-19

7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothersb has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. (Rev 12….Lamb reference to finished work of cross—Lamb of God)

Fix your minds and hearts on the objective, historical nature of the propitiatory atonement.

Mark Hunnemann is the author of Seeing Ghosts Through God's Eyes: A Worldview Analysis of Earthbound Spirits. It's also available in eBook format.

Demons and Unclean Spirits...Same Thing?

By Reverend Mark Hunnemann

I do not usually include such long texts but it is needed to show a pattern...a very significant pattern.This is but a small sampling of what occurs throughout the gospels.

Please slowly read these texts. Are you willing to change your mind if the bible is clear and contradicts what you believe? Specifically, are unclean spirits different than demons, as some assert? Is there a distinction between unclean spirits and demons? A careful reading of below texts should answer this question...unequivocally. More later...

Mark 6
v.7 And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits (ton pneumaton  ton akatharton). 8 He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff-no bread, no bag, no money in their belts- 9 but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics. 10 And he said to them, “Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you depart from there. 11 And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.” 12 So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons (daimonia) and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them.

Is there a distinction? (note verses 7 and 13)

Mark 1...
And they went into Capernaum, and immediately on the Sabbath he entered the synagogue and was teaching. 22 And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes. 23 And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit (pneumati akatharto). And he cried out, 24 “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are-the Holy One of God.” 25 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent, and come out of him!” 26 And the unclean spirit (to pneuma to akatharton), convulsing him and crying out with a loud voice, came out of him. 27 And they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits(pneumasi  tois akathartois), and they obey him.” 28 And at once his fame spread everywhere throughout all the surrounding region of Galilee. (please note below on Luke 4:31-37...parallel text)

29 And immediately he left the synagogue and entered the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 30 Now Simon's mother-in-law lay ill with a fever, and immediately they told him about her. 31 And he came and took her by the hand and lifted her up, and the fever left her, and she began to serve them.

32 That evening at sundown they brought to him all who were sick or oppressed by demons (daimonizomenous). 33 And the whole city was gathered together at the door. 34 And he healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons (daimonia). And he would not permit the demons (daimonia) to speak, because they knew him.

35 And rising very early in the morning, while it was still dark, he departed and went out to a desolate place, and there he prayed. 36 And Simon and those who were with him searched for him, 37 and they found him and said to him, “Everyone is looking for you.” 38 And he said to them, “Let us go on to the next towns, that I may preach there also, for that is why I came out.” 39 And he went throughout all Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and casting out demons (daimonia).

Is there a distinction?

Mark 5...(if you are rushed and can only read one text, please read this one)

1.They came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gerasenes. 2 And when Jesus had stepped out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit (pneumati akatharto). 3 vHe lived among the tombs. And no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain, 4 for he had often been bound with shackles and chains, but he wrenched the chains apart, and he broke the shackles in pieces. No one had the strength to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always crying out and cutting himself with stones. 6 And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and fell down before him. 7 And crying out with a loud voice, he said, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me.” 8 For he was saying to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!” (to pneuma to akatharton) 9 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” 10 And he begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country. 11 Now a great herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside, 12 and they begged him, saying, “Send us to the pigs; let us enter them.” 13 So he gave them permission. And the unclean spirits (ta pneumata ta akatharta)came out and entered the pigs; and the herd, numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the sea.

14 The herdsmen fled and told it in the city and in the country. And people came to see what it was that had happened. 15 And they came to Jesus and saw the demon-possessed man (daimonizomenon), the one who had had the legion, sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, and they were afraid. 16 And those who had seen it described to them what had happened to the demon-possessed man (daimonizomino) and to the pigs. 17 And they began to beg Jesus4 to depart from their region. 18 As he was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed with demons (ho daimonistheis)begged him that he might be with him. 19 And he did not permit him but said to him, “Go home to your friends and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” 20 And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him, and everyone marveled.

Is there a distinction?  (notice the clear and natural transition of terms as the narrative evolves) This one text should resolve the issue once and for all..

The debate continues unabated concerning who/what populates the spirit realm. One argument that I have seen recently is that there is a distinction between unclean spirits and demons. Stated differently, unclean spirits and demons are alleged to not be the same thing--they are different kinds of beings. They may have some similarities, but the alleged dissimilarities are said to be proof of their distinct identities. Usually the bible is used to demonstrate this distinction.Also, one of these beings is said to be stronger than the other. In addition, it is perhaps significant that those who do distinguish between the two, tend to also believe in some forms of trapped human spirits...but that is another story.

So what...what is the big deal? As we have noted before, when dealing with God's Word, we are ordered by God Himself to be as accurate as possible in our interpretation of every text.To mis-interpret is sin...a failure to love God with all of our minds. Second, once you begin multiplying spirit beings confusion is bound to follow. "Is this house occupied by a demon/s or by unclean spirit/s?" Confusion from the outset.(some say that they deal with unclean spirits and demons in the same manner, but that is irrelevant as to our purpose--determining what populates the spirit realm?)

Third, once the multiplying of spirit beings is begun, it is easy to step on the slippery slope of introducing additional beings.(e.g. purgatorial dead, malevolent dead, elementals, etc) But, most importantly, we are simply to be consumed with accurate exegesis and interpretation...handling the precious oracles of God with immense care.

My purpose in this blog is not to analyze the specifics of these texts, but to ask: does the bible differentiate between unclean spirits and demons? Are they different or the same? That is the issue before us.

IF YOU HAVE NOT ALREADY DONE SO, PLEASE READ SLOWLY THE ABOVE TEXTS FROM THE GOSPEL OF MARK. Btw, I chose these passages almost at random...what you read here is uniform throughout the New Testament, especially the gospels.Next week I think I will deal with what theologians call "progressive revelation", and the Old Testament view of demons and how it is consistent with the NT view, albeit not as clearly or as fully revealed.

Luke 4:31-37 is a parallel passage to Mark 1:21-28. In v 33 (and this is very significant) it states, "And in the synagogue there was a man with a spirit of an unclean demon (pneuma daimoniou akathartou)..." Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Luke called this being an "unclean demon" which Mark had called an "unclean spirit". The implications are very significant for our purpose. Also, uncleaness and "demoness" are connected in this one verse..further supporting that unclean spirits and demons were seen by the gospel writers as one and the same being. Is it not common sense to view demons as the epitome of uncleaness? That is a reason why the terms are interchangable.Let me elaborate a bit.

In Mark 1:23,26,27 Jesus comes into conflict with "unclean spirits" (pneumati akatharto...pneuma to akarthton....pneumasi tois akathartois--these are the different forms of the same words in the Greek for an unclean spirit/s) in these verses.
(However, hard on its heels, in v 32, 34, Jesus's ministry is casting out "demons" (tous daimonizomous....daiomonia ...ta daimonia ))

The point being that unclean spirits and demons are one and the same. In this text, the beings react the same whether they are called unclean spirits or demons.

Again, in a parallel text in Luke 4, verse 33 speaks of "unclean demons"  35 they are called " to daimonion"  and in v 36 (akathrtos  pneumasin)....interchangable. It could not be clearer....unless one does not want to see.

In the classic text of Mark 5, you will have noticed that this poor man is possessed by a  being which is first called an unclean spirit/s, but as the story unfolds Mark begins to use "demon" terminology. To me, it could not be clearer--the Holy Spirit uses demons and unclean spirits as synonyms. The bible frequently uses multiple terms for the same being to accent different things. Jesus Himself, had many names/titles but they all refer to one and same Divine Person, accenting different facets of His person and work. Satan has multiple names as well, so why all the fuss about some alleged distinction between unclean spirits and demons? Every judicious commentator on these verses sees demons and unclean spirits as the same thing.

If you read the above passages carefully, then it should be obvious that the various gospel writers used "unclean spirits" and "demons" as synonyms..I have minimized my comments in order to let the focus be on the sacred text.

All of the Greek texts which refer to unclean spirits have some form of...pneumna (spirit) akatharton (unclean), and the texts which speak of demons have some form of (daimon). I try not to overdo the original languages because I don't want to undermine your confidence in the integrity of the English bible translations...in this case the ESV. I just wanted the reader to see in the original how these two terms are used interchangeably. Bottom line--unclean spirits are demons, and demons are unclean spirits.No distinction! It is clear as the noon-day sun.

"Seeing Ghosts through God's Eyes" (also in a Kindle edition)...please consider purchasing my book which uses science, logic, and the bible to analyze the true source of power behind paranormal activity.

Spare The Rod Spoil The Child And Risk Raising A Killer?

Hello my para beauties. I've had 12 requests to discuss what the Bible says regarding the title of this article/blog. They feel that many people have and are raising children to feel the world revolves around them and what they want when they want. And can they really create a poltergeist when in chaos or anger. From what I know it's possible. And even grow up to be criminals. Way too many people are having kids at such a young age and are unable to care for them properly. And many have no patience it requires nor willing to give up their life in order to raise the child. They realize everything revolves around this dear child and they often neglect and sometimes kill their own children. They didn't ask to be born in interrupt anyone's life.

It appears that we are seeing on the news many stories of minors killing each people, either, their siblings, their parents etc...more and more teens are having children and are not properly raising them. They are told no but never been made to accept it. It's doing a disservice to the innocent children by not setting reasonable boundaries and rules. And follow thru with punishments they are told is the consequence of not following rules. Even the bible tells us this.

What Does The Gospel Say About This? Here are a few examples...

Colossians 3:20

Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Colossians 3:20-24 ESV Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. (21) Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. (22) Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, (24) knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

Leviticus 20:9

For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Proverbs 30:17

The eye that mocks a father and scorns to obey a mother will be picked out by the ravens of the valley and eaten by the vultures.

Proverbs 13:24

Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

In my humble opinion "Spare the rod, spoil the child," or, in more complete English, "If you spare the rod you will spoil the child." The general meaning is that parents who don't discipline their children are going to create spoiled children. Some feel they should take a more literal approach, and say that parents must physically discipline their children, because "the rod" here means "to beat your child with a stick." There is much debate about whether it is okay or good for parents to spank, slap, or otherwise discipline children through minor physical pain such as a pop on the rear end for disrespecting adults. That's just one example.

A friend of mine was talking about this very subject at bible study. "I was not spanked as a child. When I became a teenager I became very rebellious. I had no fear of consequence, no respect for my parents, or any authority. It is by the grace of God that I am not dead or jail. I am saddened that this is not the outcome for many who have never been taught as a child that life has consequences." More and more children receive no consequences for ill behavior much less ever have been made to accept the word "No".

Of course this subject could go on and on. I wanted to try my best at discussing this at both point of views. I think you have to do what you feel is best for your situation. There is a huge difference in dicipline and beating a child. But when there is never any consequences your taking a big chance and creating undue stress and a disservice to the child. They only know right from wrong from what the parents teach them.

 Written By Jennifer L Auld

Spare The Rod Spoil The Child And Risk Raising A Killer?

Hello my para beauties. I hope everyone enjoyed their Christmas/ Holiday season. The new year will be here in 2 days, my gosh where did the time go? It's just mind boggling to think. Celebration of our Lord Jesus Christ tends to be out shadowed as it seems the main objection is what gift to buy for the people we love. Children handing over lists of toys or electronics they expect to receive and many folks are already very limited on funds and struggling in this awful economy will go broke and say"Well Christmas is about giving." Not completely. Nor is it about receiving gifts. It's about the Birth of Christ if you are of the believing faith. Of course this does not all apply to everyone.

I've had 12 requests to discuss what the Bible says regarding the title of this article/blog. They feel that many people have and are raising children to feel the world revolves around them and what they want when they want. And can they really create a poltergeist when in chaos or anger. From what I know it's possible. And even grow up to be criminals. Way too many people are having kids at such a young age and are unable to care for them properly. And many have no patience it requires nor willing to give up their life in order to raise the child. They realize everything revolves around this dear child and they often neglect and sometimes kill their own children. They didn't ask to be born in interrupt anyone's life.

It appears that we are seeing on the news many stories of minors killing each people, either, their siblings, their parents etc...more and more teens are having children and are not properly raising them. They are told no but never been made to accept it. It's doing a disservice to the innocent children by not setting reasonable boundaries and rules. And follow thru with punishments they are told is the consequence of not following rules. Even the bible tells us this.

What Does The Gospel Say About This? Here are a few examples...

Colossians 3:20

Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Colossians 3:20-24 ESV Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. (21) Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. (22) Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, (24) knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

Leviticus 20:9

For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Proverbs 30:17

The eye that mocks a father and scorns to obey a mother will be picked out by the ravens of the valley and eaten by the vultures.

Proverbs 13:24

Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

In my humble opinion "Spare the rod, spoil the child," or, in more complete English, "If you spare the rod you will spoil the child." The general meaning is that parents who don't discipline their children are going to create spoiled children. Some feel they should take a more literal approach, and say that parents must physically discipline their children, because "the rod" here means "to beat your child with a stick." There is much debate about whether it is okay or good for parents to spank, slap, or otherwise discipline children through minor physical pain such as a pop on the rear end for disrespecting adults. That's just one example.

A friend of mine was talking about this very subject at bible study. "I was not spanked as a child. When I became a teenager I became very rebellious. I had no fear of consequence, no respect for my parents, or any authority. It is by the grace of God that I am not dead or jail. I am saddened that this is not the outcome for many who have never been taught as a child that life has consequences." More and more children receive no consequences for ill behavior much less ever have been made to accept the word "No".

Of course this subject could go on and on. I wanted to try my best at discussing this at both point of views. I think you have to do what you feel is best for your situation. There is a huge difference in dicipline and beating a child. But when there is never any consequences your taking a big chance and creating undue stress and a disservice to the child. They only know right from wrong from what the parents teach them.

 Written By Jennifer L Auld

God's Forgiveness

By Stephen Piersall,

God’s Preservation Ministry, sfprs.org       

     

Here are an amazing prophecy and promise from Jeremiah, a humble minister of God who had to watch the Babylonian captivity take place before his own eyes. God is speaking to sinful Israel (and speaking to you): "I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more" (Jeremiah 31:34). God Remembers Our Sins No More! Is God absentminded? Does he have heavenly Alzheimer's disease? If God is omniscient, how could he lose track of data like this? The answer is that God chooses not to remember our failures (a feat; we are not capable of). He can indeed forgive and forget.

You know all about the reluctant way we "forgive" one another and "Well; I'll forgive, but I can't forget!" Since we cannot forget, ugly memories keep coming back and draw out our inclination to forgive. This is one of many sins that we do so often and do not realize we are inviting evil into our lives. It is called a Legal Right. Clergy, Exorcists, Demonologists, and those in the Deliverance Ministry cannot no matter how many times they command it removed in the name of "Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior!" ONLY YOU can remove this. You allowed it in your life through an invitation, and you are the one that can give the command to cast it to the abyss.

I can tell you the number-one reason for removing a huge burden in my life. It was when I forgave someone who has wronged me or perceived to have wronged me. I can give you a list a mile long; ex-wife, children, clergy, parents, friends, family, and the biggest one of all…ME! It is difficult at times to forgive, but know God commands it. It hurts when you forgive someone, say through an email, text message and the person does not even reply. If that is the case, then that person has now sinned against God. Jesus has taught us in the Gospels, of how we should treat each other. That is why I cannot read the Gospels enough times throughout the year. Even old dogs like me can learn new tricks; I always learn something every time I read them.

Do not pray about this with expectations God will bless you. Pray about this and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you what you need to come clean about in your life. Just to have that burden lifted from you will help you have a healthier lifestyle. Pray about it right now.

Dialogue Between His Holiness the Dalai Lama & Fr Laurence Freeman About the Teacher & Disciple in Sarnath, Varanasi

Sarnath, Uttar Pradesh, India - January 14, 2013 at WebWire.com

Today was dedicated to a conversation between His Holiness the Dalai Lama and his longstanding spiritual friend Fr Laurence Freeman, Director of the World Community for Christian Meditation. The theme was seeing Jesus and the Buddha as teachers and the role of the disciple. The venue was the Atisha Hall of the Central University of Tibetan Studies in Sarnath.

The conversation began during a private meeting between His Holiness and Fr Laurence and some of his friends and benefactors. One of them asked about truth and His Holiness replied, “Once you are familiar with the truth, it has an effect on your mind. In his own teachings the Buddha described reality in different ways because of different dispositions and temperaments among his followers. When Christians and Buddhists come together we can say we have two versions of the truth, if a Muslim joins us there are three.”

Asked whether religion is necessary he said,

“Religion is a kind of instrument for transforming our minds into something positive. Everyone wants to be happy and here in the twenty-first century material facilities are highly developed. Indeed since there are still so many poor people we need to have material development. However, a great deal depends on our becoming aware of the limits of material values and our beginning to look inward. So far material development by itself has failed to produce a happy society. “

Before an audience of about 250 in the larger hall, Fr Laurence opened the conversation by recalling an earlier occasion when he invited His Holiness to comment on passages from the gospels,

“We were deeply touched by your handling of our sacred words and your insight into the truth of the gospels. It took a lot of courage.”

His Holiness replied,

“I found there were ideas in common with Buddhist teaching and it made for a very good meeting. After that you came with friends to Bodhgaya, and for the first time Buddhists and Christians prayed together under the Bodhi tree.”

Fr Laurence explained that he would speak about Jesus and how he relates to him as a teacher and then His Holiness would speak about how he views the Buddha. He invited His Holiness to interrupt him if he liked, which drew the following response:

“We are all human beings. When I meet someone I think, ‘Here’s another human being who like me wants to be happy.’ Formality just creates unnecessary barriers between us. As members of one human family we don’t need formality between us, so if I have something to say I’ll do so.”

Fr Laurence began to share his thoughts:

“I think of Jesus as a human being, a historical person later understood as the Son of God. I relate to him as a natural Jesus, an extraordinary human being, one of the few who have become universal teachers. We know little about his early life, but we know that he had an awakening when he was baptised by John the Baptist and that the spirit of it led him into the desert for forty days. Jesus taught by example, so his life is consistent with his teaching. I asked you years ago how you remain so calm and peaceful and you replied ‘I try to be the same on my own as when I’m with close friends or in public.’

“Jesus is a model for how to live my life. I consider him a universal teacher, a person of integrity with natural authority who embodies the truth. He’s someone in whom I can take refuge with trust and confidence. My relationship with Jesus straightens me out.”

He remarked that there seems to be a correspondence between the Christian idea that everyone is created in the image of God and Buddha nature. When he experiences Christ within, he sees him reflected in other people he meets.

“Jesus is a medicine, a physician, not a judge; someone who brings healing to the world. He’s a teacher, a leader and a way. Because of that I feel I can live my life with meaning.”

“Wonderful, wonderful, that’s really my own understanding of Jesus,” His Holiness responded. “Through your own intelligent analysis you have reached an understanding that affects your life.”

“All Buddhists accept that the Buddha was the son of a local king. When he realized that even for a prince life is full of problems and difficulties he sought a deeper meaning of life and an understanding of reality. He left the palace and spent six years meditating, fasting and living in hardship. In his own life he observed morality, concentration and wisdom. He attained enlightenment and came here to Sarnath to begin his teaching. He had no regard for social status, considering kings and beggars as equal; the important thing was practice.

“After leaving the palace, he cut his hair and removed his royal attire, donning the saffron robes of a monk. Apart from the principal precepts, the vows of the monks came about whenever the Buddha corrected mistakes the monks had made, he didn’t declare a pre-existing set of rules. He explained that there is no independent self, but that the self is a mere designation on the basis of the body and mind. The very purpose of the teaching of the lack of an independent self is to reduce self-centredness, which single-pointed faith in God can do too. All our religions have the same message of love, compassion, tolerance and forgiveness, although their philosophical views are different.”

Everyone took lunch together under a shamiana in the University grounds and discussions continued as people ate. On his way back to the meeting hall, His Holiness greeted several friends who had come to meet him, including visually challenged girls from the nearby Jeevan Jyoti Institute for the Disabled and their teachers, in whose welfare he takes a close interest. In the afternoon session, the focus was on what it means to be a disciple. Fr Laurence began again, noting that Jesus gathered his disciples together calling on them “Follow me.” He said this image of a disciple is essential to Christian meaning and identity, but it also has a universal quality. A disciple has to be open, trusting and to tell the truth. The teacher is faithful to the disciple. This fidelity marks the teacher-disciple relationship. He affirmed that an authentic relationship with your teacher is the guiding light of your life.

His Holiness said that a teacher must have experience, especially inner spiritual experience. The important thing is that in following a teacher you become a calmer person. Both parties to the relationship have a responsibility, the teacher’s is to take care of the student, and the student’s is to act with respect.

He remarked that we too often pay attention to appearances, like young women enhancing their external beauty with cosmetics, when what is important in our relationships is inner beauty. What follows from this is the inner peace that gives rise to happiness as individuals, as families and as communities. If we have that, when we face problems we can easily work them out between us. Inner peace brings strength.

A questioner asked if it is possible to be a follower of both Jesus and the Buddha. Fr Laurence commented that the Bible says we should take advice from every wise person, suggesting we accept truth wherever we find it. He quoted His Holiness as saying that it may be possible to be a Buddhist and a Christian for a while, but eventually you find yourself gravitating to one or the other. His Holiness concurred.

Someone else asked about Christians practising Buddhist meditation. His Holiness replied that there are many different methods for training the mind and it’s possible to adopt such practices. You need to see what is most effective for you.

To a question about what happens to human beings after death, His Holiness said,

“The simple thing is that while we are still alive, we should lead a meaningful life from day to day. That means helping others wherever we can, but at least avoiding doing them harm. Then when death comes we will have no regret and can feel confident of going to heaven or to a good rebirth. This is what I do myself. Even in my dreams I remember that I am a Buddhist monk, never the Dalai Lama. If death comes tonight, I’ll have no regrets and I hope this confidence will continue to prevail.”

Photographs were taken together, words of thanks were said and all the participants looked forward to when they will meet again.